20150721 Paul and Women

Hi folks

Enjoyed lunch as always Sunday and talking with you. Good to see Liz too.  One thing I mentioned was the above scripture, especially   v 15. 
I promised to get back to you on where it was in Bible - and I have added a few comments! Gena Haywood was our teacher for the class Sunday, and she always does a fine job.
------------------
I bet we all are familiar with most of this scripture but I never noticed v 15 of   I Timothy 2, 1-15  before . Below are quotes from 3 versions of the Bible, they are about the same. Also below is scripture from the Living Bible which is  different. Then last is scripture from the Phillips Bible. It is really different. See the note I attached to it.

On class we were discussing Paul including,

• how some of  "his" Books seem different from earlier ones
• He had plenty of woman helping him as leaders and supporters and officials in their churches even though "his"  books are tough on women at times.
  
• that perhaps someone wrote books attributed to him  to modify his earlier comments by trying to make them more in line with the then current thinking
• How are we are deal with  passages such as  this  today

In Ownbey, Ace has discussed that all the books attributed to Paul were not written by him. (Ace discussed the ambiguity of authors in his Ownbey class  9/29/14  on Hebrews here.)
Some claim were written  by people "who knew what he would say." Kinda like Billy Graham does not write his column in the paper, others do and claim  they know what Billy would say.

The 7 "Genuine" Paul letters are as follows: (according to various sources and  the Living class I am taking during SS hour).

1. 1 Thessalonians,
2. 1 and
   
3. 2 Corinthians
4. Galatians
5. Philemon
6. Philippians
7. Romans. 

1 Thessalonians is probably the earliest and Romans the latest.
----------------
The other 6 are not thought to be  his:

1. Colossians
2. 1 and 2 Timothy
3. 2 Thessalonians
4. Ephesians
5. Titus
6. Hebrews

Don 7/21/2015

---

Here are the scriptures  from the RSV, NRSV, and original King James

1 Timothy 2:8-15 Revised Standard Version (RSV)

⁸ I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; ⁹ also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire ¹⁰ but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. ¹¹ Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. ¹² I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. ¹³ For Adam was formed first, then Eve; ¹⁴ and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. ¹⁵ Yet woman will be saved through bearing children,^[a] if she continues^[b] in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Timothy 2:15 Or by the birth of the child  1 Timothy 2:15 Greek they continue

---

1 Timothy 2:8-15 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

⁸ I desire, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or argument; ⁹ also that the women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes, ¹⁰ but with good works, as is proper for women who profess reverence for God. ¹¹ Let a woman^[a] learn in silence with full submission. ¹² I permit no woman^[b] to teach or to have authority over a man;^[c] she is to keep silent. ¹³ For Adam was formed first, then Eve; ¹⁴ and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. ¹⁵ Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

Footnotes:

1. 1 Timothy 2:11 Or wife   1 Timothy 2:12 Or wife     1 Timothy 2:12 Or her husband

---

1 Timothy 2:8-15 King James Version (KJV)

⁸ I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. ⁹ In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; ¹⁰ But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.  ¹¹ Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.¹² But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. ¹³ For Adam was first formed, then Eve. ¹⁴ And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ¹⁵ Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

No Footnotes!

---

1 Timothy 2:8-15 Living Bible (TLB)

⁸ So I want men everywhere to pray with holy hands lifted up to God, free from sin and anger and resentment. ^9-10 And the women should be the same way, quiet and sensible in manner and clothing. Christian women should be noticed for being kind and good, not for the way they fix their hair or because of their jewels or fancy clothes. ¹¹ Women should listen and learn quietly and humbly.
¹² I never let women teach men or lord it over them. Let them be silent in your church meetings. ¹³ Why? Because God made Adam first, and afterwards he made Eve. ¹⁴ And it was not Adam who was fooled by Satan, but Eve, and sin was the result. ¹⁵ So God sent pain and suffering to women when their children are born, but he will save their souls if they trust in him, living quiet, good, and loving lives.

---

1 Timothy 2:8-15 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

Notes byDon:
J. B. Phillips is an interesting man and translator. He did a Bible  and tried to make it clearer for (young) people to read by modifying and adding his thoughts into the text of the Bible (not in footnotes) and his version supposedly became so popular in schools teaching Bible that he decided he had done a disservice. He subsequently again modified the Bible  to reflect more of the "originals and less of his thoughts). He even apologized in the front of his version for have done the first version that way. I would quote it but  can not find that Bible now. That probably has happened to many or all of the books of the Bible, folks wanted to make it clearer and easier to read with more versions even if changing the originals. With Phillips,  I am not sure which is which when reading his Bibles
Here is one of his versions of this scripture

⁸ I want the men to pray in all the churches with sincerity, without resentment or doubt in their minds.

My views on men and women in the Church

^9-15 The women should be dressed quietly, and their demeanour should be modest and serious. The adornment of a Christian woman is not a matter of an elaborate coiffure, expensive clothes or valuable jewellery, but the living of a good life. A woman should learn quietly and humbly. Personally, I don’t allow women to teach, nor do I ever put them into positions of authority over men—I believe their role is to be receptive. (My reasons are that man was created before woman. Further, it was Eve and not Adam who was first deceived and fell into sin. Nevertheless I believe that women will come safely through child-birth if they maintain a life of faith, love, holiness and gravity).